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Nycki
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| Posted: Mon 0606 Aug 07, 4 pm Post subject: 1. Burns - Introduction |
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My thoughts thus far….
Perhaps its important to remember that those who could get thru this book within 4 weeks were 'motivated' to do so by their agreement to participating in the research that Burns and company were doing at the time. Its amazing wot we can achieve when we have to answer to another person! Jes being in this group is a motivation to those of us who are participating in the reading and commenting on what we have learned so far. Some of us feel the need to participate coz we feel responsible to be 'answerable' to those we made this committment too.
R 'musts' and 'shoulds' the same thing? If I think that I must remember to do 'something', then isnt it also true that I feel that that 'something' is wot I 'should' do? If I feel that I 'deserve' to always have positive experiences in my life (I must), then arent I also going to be convinced that everyone 'should' treat me well all of the time? Arent my 'shoulds' and 'musts' steaming from my demand for control...so that my life works as I wish it too...coz if it wasnt working my way, then I am failing and am going to suffer when I dont deserve to suffer? Wots going to 'disturb' me is my 'musts'...my demands for perfection from others and myself....my demand for control.
I think that each of the 10 cognitive distortions are also steaming from my demand for control...my hate of failure. Because I hate failure I am going to think in 'black and white' coz its either right or wrong; overgeneralize coz if something is wrong now it can be wrong all the time; focus on one event that confirms my fear of failure (Mental Filter); Ignore positives coz 'everything' isnt positive; jump to conclusions about events coz I 'feel' upset about things not being the way I want them; Feel the problems are massive coz I cant stop/control them; using my emotions to reason coz I am shaming myself by not having control of 'all' of my life; 'label' so that I can regain some control by putting myself or someone else into a 'box' with that label; personalize the problem because I should have been in control of it, and as I am not, it must be my fault. All of this adds up to my having lack of control coz things arent as they should or must be!
I think on the surface Burns 10 cognitive distortions may seem different then Ellis' 'shoulds' and 'musts'...but really they all fit under our 'need for CONTROL'...or so we feel!
What do you think? |
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Bonnie_g
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| Posted: Mon 0606 Aug 07, 4 pm Post subject: |
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| I find it hard to believe a depressed person could get thru this book in 4 weeks. That truly is a lot of motivation. |
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anoopkumar
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| Posted: Mon 0606 Aug 07, 6 pm Post subject: |
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in the past one month cut my antidepressent to half- thats below the minimum level-i have read the book at least three times- now illstart again with you guys-feeling is great-
anoopkumar, india. |
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Will
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| Posted: Tue 0707 Aug 07, 1 am Post subject: |
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The Introduction offers hope to readers—there is a cure for depression that will work alongside (or without) medication. Burns neatly sums up the promise of cognitive therapy in four simple parts:
1. When you are depressed or anxious, you are thinking in an illogical, negative manner, and you act in a self-defeating way.
2. With a little effort you can train yourself to straighten your twisted thought patterns.
3. As your painful symptoms are eliminated, you will become productive and happy again, and you will respect yourself.
4. These aims can usually be accomplished in a relatively brief period of time, using straight forward methods.
I believe this is an excellent summary of the promise of a variety of cognitive therapies (CT, REBT, RBT, etc). At the same time, I think that it slightly misleading. In Point 2, Burns says with a little effort you can train yourself to straighten your twisted thought patterns. While it only takes a little effort to learn how to straighten out twisted thinking, it takes lots of effort to make it a habit.
By reading “Feeling Good” anyone can learn how to straighten their thinking. But knowing how isn’t enough. In order to feel better, it is necessary to put that knowledge to work.
As Russell Grieger* has noted, getting the most out of CBT (including this book), requires three insights:
1. An understanding of the effects that thoughts and beliefs have on our emotions, and an understanding of the effect that changing our thoughts and beliefs can have.
2. An appreciation of the personal responsibility we have for our own emotions and behaviors (this means that you do not blame your feelings on someone else or on the circumstances you find yourself in).
3. A commitment to use the first two insights to make the most of your life (or as Ellis would say, a commitment to stubbornly refuse to make yourself miserable about anything—yes, anything).
Regards,
Will
* Grieger, R., (1991). Keys to effective RET. In M. Bernard (Ed.), Using rational-emotive therapy effectively (pp. 35-67). New York: Plenum Press |
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anoopkumar
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| Posted: Tue 0707 Aug 07, 5 pm Post subject: |
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hey Will,
you say that Burns summs up the promises of cognitive therapy in 4 ways-
3- as your painful symptoms are eliminated,you will
become productive andhappy again ,
and you will respect yourself-
respecting yourself? is it not respecting the self the starting of all problems.
you are wrong my dear.
anoopkumar. |
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kb1381
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| Posted: Tue 0707 Aug 07, 7 pm Post subject: |
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anoopkumar,
I think Will was just paraphrasing what Burns was saying in the introduction.
Unless I misunderstand you, this gets to the heart of a fundamental disagreement between some Cognitive Behavior Therapist types and Rational Emotive Therapist types. It certainly is interesting. I myself feel that Ellis' approach (to say that one should try not to rate oneself at all) is probably the best but it may be unworkable.
I try not to let it bug me, but it does.  Burns seems to advocate the rate yourself highly because you exist method, but in a later chapter I believe he does discuss 4 ways to sort out the whole self-esteem thing.
| anoopkumar wrote: |
hey Will,
you say that Burns summs up the promises of cognitive therapy in 4 ways-
3- as your painful symptoms are eliminated,you will
become productive andhappy again ,
and you will respect yourself-
respecting yourself? is it not respecting the self the starting of all problems.
you are wrong my dear.
anoopkumar. |
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kb1381
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| Posted: Tue 0707 Aug 07, 7 pm Post subject: Re: 1. Burns - Introduction |
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Thanks for this Nycki.
I think REBT folks might say that the 10 distortions are good, but that they are often just treating the symptoms, while REBT gets to the heart of the matter.
Me, I dunno, they may be right there, but I find the distortions and Burns method in general easier to grab a hold of and use in real life than Ellis'.
Let me use an example from my life to illustrate. I was upset at work last night because a database corrupted (for the 10th time in the last month).
Thoughts: This is horrible, everyone hates us, I am going to lose my job and end up on the street, we are not good programmers.
Now Ellis would say, look for the should and go from there. I have trouble with that sometimes. To me it is easier to go through the distortions and pick out the ones that apply then reframe the irrational thoughts in light of that knowledge. Is Ellis' approach going to deal with the mind reading and fortune telling that is going on? Not really, unless one is with a skilled therapist. Ellis will just allow me to live in a world where 'everyone hates us', and I am 'going to lose my job and end up on the street'.
Ellis is good on a philosophical level. But Burns is good where the rubber meets the road. IMHO.
| Nycki wrote: |
My thoughts thus far….
Perhaps its important to remember that those who could get thru this book within 4 weeks were 'motivated' to do so by their agreement to participating in the research that Burns and company were doing at the time. Its amazing wot we can achieve when we have to answer to another person! Jes being in this group is a motivation to those of us who are participating in the reading and commenting on what we have learned so far. Some of us feel the need to participate coz we feel responsible to be 'answerable' to those we made this committment too.
R 'musts' and 'shoulds' the same thing? If I think that I must remember to do 'something', then isnt it also true that I feel that that 'something' is wot I 'should' do? If I feel that I 'deserve' to always have positive experiences in my life (I must), then arent I also going to be convinced that everyone 'should' treat me well all of the time? Arent my 'shoulds' and 'musts' steaming from my demand for control...so that my life works as I wish it too...coz if it wasnt working my way, then I am failing and am going to suffer when I dont deserve to suffer? Wots going to 'disturb' me is my 'musts'...my demands for perfection from others and myself....my demand for control.
I think that each of the 10 cognitive distortions are also steaming from my demand for control...my hate of failure. Because I hate failure I am going to think in 'black and white' coz its either right or wrong; overgeneralize coz if something is wrong now it can be wrong all the time; focus on one event that confirms my fear of failure (Mental Filter); Ignore positives coz 'everything' isnt positive; jump to conclusions about events coz I 'feel' upset about things not being the way I want them; Feel the problems are massive coz I cant stop/control them; using my emotions to reason coz I am shaming myself by not having control of 'all' of my life; 'label' so that I can regain some control by putting myself or someone else into a 'box' with that label; personalize the problem because I should have been in control of it, and as I am not, it must be my fault. All of this adds up to my having lack of control coz things arent as they should or must be!
I think on the surface Burns 10 cognitive distortions may seem different then Ellis' 'shoulds' and 'musts'...but really they all fit under our 'need for CONTROL'...or so we feel!
What do you think? |
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Will
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| Posted: Wed 0808 Aug 07, 5 am Post subject: |
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Hi Anoop,
If David Burns had said, “you will esteem yourself,” I would enthusiastically agree with your point. But instead, he used the words “respect yourself.” To me, there is a subtle difference between esteeming oneself and respecting oneself. It may be subtle, but it is a difference that makes a difference.
To esteem myself implies that I think (1) I have certain desirable traits, and/or (2) I have succeeded at important tasks, and/or (3) other people like me, therefore (4) I am a good person. It is this fourth point (I am a good person) that leads to problems because I could easily lose the desirable traits, fail at major endeavors, or have people despise me. I would then no longer have justification for thinking I’m a good person. And that, as you say, is often the start of our problems.
On the other hand, to respect myself implies that I think (1) I value my existence (I’d rather be alive than dead); (2) I have certain goals in life that I consider worth pursuing; and (3) as much as possible, I will do what is necessary to pursue those goals.
REBT advocates certain values as indicative of good mental health. Among those values are enlightened self-interest, self-direction, self-acceptance, and commitment to creative pursuits. Each of these values implies a measure of self-respect, as I have defined it.
Without self-respect, we would not value our existence, and we would allow others – or chance circumstances – to dictate the direction of our lives.
Of course, you may define “self-respect” differently.
Regards,
Will |
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anoopkumar
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| Posted: Wed 0808 Aug 07, 11 am Post subject: |
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Hi Will, i see you on line-its 10.30am here in india-just saw your explanation-yeah i understand its all in the definition- let me think abt it-
bye,Bud. |
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anoopkumar
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| Posted: Wed 0808 Aug 07, 12 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Nycki,
Your second posting of the same thing is a good reminder to us to stay away from too much diversions- you are right-
But,Bud, you seemed to be jumping ahead.(or is it my jumping to conclusions)-is n’t the 10 cognitve distortions from chapter -3.
Now lets look at the definitions of musts,oughts and shoulds-
MUST, OUGHT, SHOULD express necessity or duty. MUST expresses necessity or compulsion: I must attend to those patients first. Soldiers must obey orders. OUGHT (weaker than MUST) expresses obligation, duty, desirability: You ought to tell your mother. SHOULD expresses obligation, expectation, or probability: You are not behaving as you should. Children should be taught to speak the truth. They should arrive at one o'clock.
See the sentences- I must attend to those patients first-----and you must-Damn rebt
Soldiers must obey orders---- and they must-damn rebt-otherwise countries like the usa will conquer other countries )
Ought is milder and mostly obligations-You ought to tell your mother- and you ought-
But he real villain is should- the should that comes from expectations- and this should indeed is in need of our rebt.
For eg. I should become a great author.---this should if you harbour, like this author bastard, you are done for-
So what iam suggesting is, we may ( note it guys) remove must and ought from the dictionary of rebt and keep the should in bold double italics.
Bye ,
Anoopkumar. |
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anoopkumar
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| Posted: Wed 0808 Aug 07, 1 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Will,
one of the main traits of self actulised individuals is that for them there seems no difference between the ends and the means-it is merged-thier ends are their means,the processes, routes...Is it not a state of goallessness leading to goals- a state of flow and growth where self interest and value of existence doesn't exist--do we really need to worship them?
bye,
anoopkumar. |
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vicky
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| Posted: Thu 0909 Aug 07, 11 am Post subject: Dr. Russell Grieger |
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Hi Will and everyone!
I was really surprised to see my therapist's name mentioned here by Will. Dr. Russell Grieger is my psychologist. I will have to show him your posts about one of his articles.
I have already posted on the first several chapters. Where Kevin (I believe) and I left off is on chapter 4 where the hard work begins......I am still there......I haven't really gotten past that point.
take care all!
vicky
_________________
"I need to stop "Shoulding" on myself"
as told to me by my Psychologist
Dr. Russell Greiger |
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Nycki
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| Posted: Fri 1010 Aug 07, 5 am Post subject: |
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Hi Bonnie...
4 weeks is a very short period of time to be going thru this book...but perhaps those who went thru it in that time were not only being checked up on regularly, but were conscious that they were going to spend that 4 weeks going thru the book and doing little else in their lives. Its much easier to do a lot of something if its pretty much all you have to do. I guess another thing to keep in mind...and perhaps we can watch it within ourselves as we go through this book....maybe motivation will come from wot it is that we are reading and learning. Perhaps the people in the study werent as severely depressed as u may remember urself having been when you knew you couldnt even push yourself to do the basics.
Jes my thoughts on that!
Great to see you posting btw!
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Nycki
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| Posted: Fri 1010 Aug 07, 5 am Post subject: |
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Hiya Will...
Its great to see u here and to get ur input!
I agree with you that Burns downplays the amount of effort required to 'straighten twisted thought patterns'. I cant help but ponder on the whole idea of this, in that; if twisted thought patterns corrupt our thinking and reasoning...how is it that those same twisted thought patterns can also be untwisted enuf to learn new skills/to adapt to the CBT theory of thought!
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Nycki
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| Posted: Fri 1010 Aug 07, 5 am Post subject: |
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Hi Anoopkumar
U say that 'Should' is the real villian and feel that 'ought' and 'must' are not so bad?
I am not so convinced of that because 'obligations' and 'expectations' are jes as rooted in DEMAND as 'shoulds' are. Infact...I think they are only shoulds by another name!
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