 |
| REBT Central
Discuss & Learn about REBT & CBT |
 |
|
| Author |
Message |
Nycki
User is Offline
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 39
|
| Posted: Sun 1313 Jan 08, 1 pm Post subject: Chapter 1 - Ending Your Self-Inflicted Pain |
|
|
Chapter 1
Since I have an 8 year old and so can completely relate to being pissed if he was to stay up until 1am….because I know the implications of that; I found it a little strange that such a thing to be upset about could possibly not be justified! Haha. I actually had to really stop and think what the ‘shoulds’ and ‘musts’ of this scenario were! I am now thinking that my IB’s in this regard are something like “If he inconveniences me or stresses me out by being hard to handle coz of his being overly tired; then that is not okay coz such a thing shouldn’t happen. Its unfair as children must be controlled by their parents and any parent who allows a child to engage in behaviour that will lead to them being stressed out is a stupid parent who should know better”!
When I read that ‘harsh judgement’ that I have set upon myself jes in that one thought…I can clearly see wot a bitch I am to myself! What with me not having enuf energy or time to wollow in depression….I know that I really would be better off to watch my semantics and to change such IB’s. (and yes ppl…even stop name calling!) lol
This highlights to me how easy it really is to have ‘thoughts/beliefs’ that we are unaware of…because this simple sentence used in Dr Edelsteins book didn’t seem irrational to me at first, but upon closer inspection I can see why its jes as able to cause me discomfort as any of the other comments that are included in this section…where it is easy to see how the speaker is upsetting themselves with their thoughts.
I also liked the part in chapter 1 where it’s really clear to see how Freuds ‘insight’ theory isn’t the way to find a solution. No solution is gained by the person knowing/remembering past events. Knowing I have a problem and being able to blame it on some event or person, isn’t going to offer me any relief at all….or any solution. Its not even going to point me in any useful direction to help me to find a solution. This is why I instantly fell inlove with CBT and in particular REBT..coz its blunt and it deals with the issue and helps the person to move on…to take on a whole new way of looking at an event so that they are less distressed. CBT/REBT does empower the users of it, and that’s got to be a good thing!
Nycki
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Nycki,
I had a similar reaction to the example where the wife felt upset when
she found out that her husband had been cheating on her with her best
friend. I guess I felt a certain resistance to saying that upsetting
yourself about such a thing is a choice. I felt inclined to say "Well,
really, how could you not be upset?" Perhaps I need to get clearer on
the distinction between having a strong preference that such a thing
should not happen, and having a demand that such a thing should not
happen.
Rupert
Hi Rupert...
I guess its that 'How dare this happen to me" thing that we have going on that causes some serious problems. I guess while we are thinking we are undeserving of such painful trials in our lives, we end up pitying ourselves and giving ourselves grief in our hopelessness!
While it would make for a nicer world if people didnt cheat on each other...its unfornately something that does happen....regardless of how 'unfair' we feel it to be. I guess its all of those things we tell ourselves about it, inline with the ' this shouldnt happen to me' thing that gets us the distress...while thinking that its jes as 'fair' that it happens to me as to anyone else...will cause us less distress.
Each of those examples show how the speaker keenly feels their sense of 'loss of control' over their situation. It seems we all have a fairly serious 'control freak' going on inside us!
What do u think?
Nycki 
Mon 07 Jan 08, 5:20 p.m.
This a a cruel irony of life or of "neurosis" that REBT tries to help people address. First something bad happens; your spouse cheats on you, for example. And you feel bad. As anyone probably would under the circumstances. But that is where straight-thinking, mentally-emotionally healthy people usually leave it: They experience it, they tell themselves rational, healthy things about it, they hurt for awhile, they get over it, they get on with life hopefully learning something in the process. They do not remain bitter, resentful, regretful, fearful. It only becomes a "neurotic" problem when we go on from there to flagellate ourselves and others with moralistic, demanding shoulds, musts, and oughts , implode our "self esteem" with name calling, labeling, people rating, and self-downing, magically magnify, exaggerate, and expand on our feelings and the situation by awfulizing (e.g., This is terrible, horrible, the worst, and I can't stand it! . . . etc.), generate feelings of self pity by overly-dwelling on how unfair this is and how undeserving we are of such indignity, etc, etc, etc . . .
One of the most basic functions which is often misunderstood or over looked is learning to tell the difference between "normal", healthy thinking-emoting-behaving . . . and irrational thinking which leads to inflamed emotion (or depression) . . . which leads to self-defeating, unfulfilling behavior . . . and how to move from the former toward the later.
Aloha,
Rex
Hi Rex,
I guess I would like to be a little clearer on where the boundary
between healthy and unhealthy emotion is. Obviously being free of
unpleasant emotions is not a realistic goal. When I look back on some
of the things that have happened over the past few months, I can think
of a few instances where I might say "I was upsetting myself about
this more than I had to and it didn't serve me particularly well to
beat myself up about this in this way." But at the same time I also
have a certain tendency to say "Can I really ever expect not to get
myself worked up about events like this in this way?" I sometimes have
a hard time drawing the line about how much of a choice I have about
how upset I get.
Rupert
Hi Nycki,
That's a useful perspective to have on it. It is an unfortunate fact
of life that sometimes people cheat on each other, and when this is
acknowledged it seems unreasonable to demand that there should be an
absolute guarantee that it never happen to us. And then of course we
can compare the misfortune with other problems that human beings have
of which they are equally "undeserving".
I just find it hard to imagine that I could ever get to a point where
I would find out that my long-term partner had been cheating on me
with my best friend without feeling strong feelings of injury and
anger. Somehow such a response just seems "natural". It's not obvious
that what you are in fact doing is making unreasonable demands on the
universe.
Rupert
Mon 07 Jan 08, 6:11 p.m.
Hi Rupert, all,
I think that often there is some overlap between healthy and unhealthy emoting. The borderline may be fuzzy and may be different on different occasions depending on lots of factors. A weak demand may indeed seem a lot like a strong preference. As I said the other day, don't forget that "strong preferences" may indeed be very STRONG. It's a judgment call that you have to make. And learning to distinguish between the two is a process and involves a learning curve. You get it, I believe, through practice and doing, not through some cognitive model.
I am a recovered alcoholic and drug addict. Growing up in a family of neglect and alcoholism, deep emotional disturbance, and worst of all, a bunch of nutty actors =-O , I developed a very distorted sense of emotions, often erroneously associating drama and chaos with emotion. One of the greatest gifts I have gained from REBT is learning to distinguish healthy thinking-emoting-behaving form the unhealthy kind. I still have work to do on it. But it didn't come easily or quickly, and I cannot give you some neat cognitive model that will help you sort it out. However, REBT, while not necessarily easy, is very clear on this: In working with an emotion or an emotional event, look for your moralistic, demanding should, oughts, and musts -- also awfulizing, over-generalizing, labeling, name calling, people-rating, self-downing, and all the other IB's (irrational beliefs), distorted thinking, and unhelpful automatic self-talk . . . and then work your ass off disputing and disputing and disputing until you are ready to replace these distortions with thoughts that are cooler, more rational, more healthy, which in turn lead to more adaptive and self-fulfilling behavior. REBT is not a slogan or a nice set of positive principles that you store away in the attic with all the other useless crap; it is a dynamic process that you use, and work your ass off using, to change the way you think-emote-behave in order to begin having a more enjoyable and fulfilling life.
If you study and apply Burns's "Ten Cognitive Distortions", available in the files area of this yahoogroup, that may help you get a better grip on what we are talking about.
Aloha,
Rex
Hi all:
In response to the questions about healthy vs. unhealthy negative
emotions, using the spouse cheated example, the healthy negative
emotion as has already been stated is: sad, disappointment, even
anger, but based on the thought "I preferred my marriage to last
forever and my spouse to be faithful, but it did not, and it hurts,
but I can handle it." The negative emotions might be: shame, rage,
resentment and they "might" be (remember this is an example) based on
the thought, "Since my spouse chose someone else over me, there must
be something terribly wrong with me and no one else will ever love me
or want me."
I disagree to some extent with Dr. Edelstein in his statement about
the past not being important. I read that part of the chapter twice
and I think his intent is to say that merely going over the memories
from the past does not help us find a resolution to the present
problem. However, when read casually, it seems as if he is saying
that there is nothing to be gained by looking into the past for
insight about the present. This is where I disagree. I find that I,
and many of my clients, do get value out of insight into where our
negative core beliefs came from. In other words, I agree that
dwelling in the past and mucking around in old memories is not
necessary. However, I think that it is important to see a pattern
from my past as to how I developed the negative core belief (for
example) of "I am unlovable.".
I am the kind of person who always wants to know 'why'. This may be
why this is important to me and may not be to some others. However, I
have also found it important to many of my clients. But, not all, I
must admit.
Have a great day!
Cathy Stone
Hiya Cathy...
You said you are the type of person who likes to ask 'why' and I think that is a perfectly natural way for us all to start out thinking. It seems very logical to wish to know 'why'...however, it seems to me that there becomes a problem for people when they demand to know why...when sometimes there isnt a reason why X event happened. U used the example of a person having unhealthy negative emotions when they asked 'why' and ended up with "There must be something wrong with me for my spouse to leave me'. For this reason, I think 'why' is a dangerous area to tread in!
I too reread the beginning of the paragraph with 'Your childhood is irrelevant to your present problems" and I did think the same as u did, how its not something that I can agree with as a statement on its own. However...I still do believe that knowing where an irrational belief came from isnt going to help in the finding of the solution to the problem...however it may help to motivate us coz of bitter anger (that such a horrible thing happened to us to cause us to be in pain/dysfunctional), to actually work hard on doing REBT to get the solution and reduce the pain/anger from bitter to coping. I can see tho...that if left too long without treatment, insight alone may cause a person to jes sit in an angry state and become disabled in their disturbance and not be able to see the woods for the trees! So to me, understanding where or why is fine if a) there is a reason why, and if u are not left only in a state of 'insight' and not able to move on to the solution.
It seems to me that by not wasting time on finding out the 'why' of a situation, we are free to spend that needed energy on REBT/the real solution!
How does everyone else feel??
Nycki
Hi Rupert...
Why does it seem 'natural' to have 'strong feelings of injury? And can u explain for me on a scale of 1 - 10 (10 being the most) which rating u would give 'strong feelings'?
Hi Rupert, I can empathise with what you are saying. It doesn't seem to
be an unreasonable request that the situation you describe does not
occur.
One of Burn's techniques is to try and empathise with the person who you
feel has wronged you. For instance if the thought that your partner
should have broken up with you at the time of seeing someone else, Burns
suggests that the partner might have felt unable to stop seeing you
because they were attracted to two people. In short Burns tries to get
you to see the other person as suffering from 'akrasia '- weakness of
the will.
Here is how Burns describes the thoughts of a wife who has found out
that her husband has had an affair after therapy.
" He loved me but was desperately attracted to Ann. As much as he wanted
to he couldn't stop seeing her. He felt very guilty and couldn't stop
himself. He felt he would lose if he left Ann, and he would lose if he
left me. He was unwilling and unable to come to terms with either form
of loss,...."
Burns : Chapter 7:, p.169
Regards
Jules
Wed 09 Jan 08, 1:48 a.m.
There is a solution here. If you have problem letting go of Papa Freud, then do your REBT's on memories! It is absolutely no different than doing it on something "current." And, anyway, once an event has happened it is already a memory.
You go back and and recall the memory of the unresolved conflict, relive it a little to get it percolating again, and then do an ABC or Three Column just the same as if it had happened 10 minutes ago. What erroneous, irrational, unhelpful things were you telling yourself about what happed at "A"? How did that inflame the way you were feeling and emoting? What type of unfulfilling, self-defeating behavior did that result in? Is it a pattern? Did it become part of a larger, possibly life-long pattern?
Then replace that old, unhelpful thinking with something cooler, more rational and helpful. If you are dealing with guilt and shame, especially morbid, inappropriate guilt, it can be especially helpful to remind yourself that the younger version of you (particularly if this is a childhood memory) didn't know REBT, couldn't possibly be expected to be as wise as you are today, and was understandably confined to operate from whatever his or her level of consciousness was at the time. You did the best you could with what you had available . . . but now, older and wiser, you can set the record straight from an REBT perspective and let everyone in that memory off the hook, as it were. Then you can see how you can apply that insight to your present circumstances.
The point is, I think, that time is pretty irrelevant to REBT. A pattern identified, understood and resolved in the REBT sense is "multi-dimensional" in that it permeates the past, present and future. After all, the past, present and future are all a matter of your awareness and consciousness at this very moment. There are no walls in consciousness that separate the past from the present from the future.
Learn a lesson from the past and it applies to the present, and vice versa.
The important thing is just to REBT it. What "it" happens to be; the nearest blade of grass to the farthest star to the most distant memory. REBT it!
Aloha,
Rex
Hi All and Thank you Dr. Edelstein;
My comments are always based on my experience as a continuing REBT client. I am not a therapist by trade or design.
During my disputing exercises, I do ask "WHY?". However, the "why?" is not related to what someone did to me that I believe caused my current behavior. I ask "why" as a means to "prove" my belief ..which always leads me to admit the foolishness of my belief.
It is like our favorite English class in elementary school where we had to disect sentences in order to learn proper grammer.
I realize that by the way I am writing this comment it appears that I am well versed in performing 3 minute exercises....and I am......However, my irrational beliefs are so embedded into my "thinking" brain that I don't believe the "E" Dr. Edelstein refers to.
My thinking is very circular and after being in weekly therapy for 5 years now, I still have deeply rooted irrational beliefs. While my therapist concurs with Dr. Edelstein in his assessment of the activating event in itself as not being the cause of the severe anxiety and depression I am experiencing, I have read books and articles on PTSD that identify the stressor as the cause of my symptoms.
I understand that it is what I am telling myself that creates the anxiety/depression and not the stressor itself.
Here is one of my REBT exercises. I share this personal information with you so that as therapists, you can see "my" interpretation of the ABC's as a client.
A. My boss criticized my performance in regards to completing my last 3 assignments on the due date and not earlier.
B. I MUST have his approval and if I don't my worth as a person is decreased.
C. Anxiety
D. Why must I have his approval?
I HAVE to do whatever it takes to keep him happy with me.
D. Why do I HAVE to keep him happy?
If he is not happy, I am terrified.
D. Why am I terrified?
Horrible things will happen to me.
D. Why do I expect something horrible?
It is my experience that something horrible often happens when I "upset" people.
D. Has anything truly "horible" happened to me as a result of his criticism?
No.
D. Has anything truly "horrible" ever happened to me as a result of my boss not being happy with me?
No
D. What evidence do I have that something "horrible" will happen by displeasing my boss?
None
D. Is it reasonable to DEMAND my boss "like me" at all times? Why?
No, because I am human and I am not perfect. I cannot demand my boss like me because I have no control over his feelings.
D. Does his criticism truly affect my worth as a person?
No, because I have intrinsic worth that I received from the moment of conception.
E. I greatly PREFER to have his approval at all times. However, there will be times when I displease him and based on my experiences with him NOTHING horrible will happen to me, my worth is not affected and while it may be unpleasant for a short period of time, I CAN STAND IT.
vicky
Perhaps I should modify what I said a bit. At first I was inclined to
say that I found it very difficult to imagine anyone reacting to that
situation without a keen sense of being injured, and a sense of anger.
But, with a bit of effort, I can imagine someone reacting with just a
strong belief that the other person had done them a wrong, and a sense
of entitlement to impose sanctions on that person for their behaviour.
Perhaps that would not necessarily involve any unhealthy emoting?
The feelings I had in mind originally would be about an 8.
Rupert
Hi Jules,
That technique of empathy sounds like quite a good technique. I've
never cheated on a partner but I was recently in a situation where a
girl to whom I was strongly attracted, who had a boyfriend, kissed me,
(while I was single at the time), and I went along with it, even
though I regarded it as wrong, owing to "weakness of the will". I
certainly hope that I would never succumb to a temptation to cheat, no
matter how strong, but if I am honest I have to admit that I do not
have an ironclad guarantee that I would never do this. Reflecting on
these facts might make me more willing to forgive if I found myself in
a situation where I felt injured by another person.
I must apologize for being a bit slow with my replies. I could make
the excuse that I have had a lot of marking to do lately, but in
reality I have not made much progress with the marking either and it
is more to do with my tendency towards unreasonable procrastination
which I am striving to overcome. So I am looking forward to the
chapter which deals with that issue. I will try and keep up with my
posts regularly during the coming week.
Rupert
Hi All and Thank you Dr. Edelstein;
I realize that by the way I am writing this comment it appears that I am well versed in performing 3 minute exercises....and I am......However, my irrational beliefs are so embedded into my "thinking" brain that I don't believe the "E" Dr. Edelstein refers to. <
Dear Vicki,
Your Three Minute Exercise (TME) is excellent! My only suggestions are: a) you add the "F" (new Feeling) and, b) you only write "Es" (Effective new thinking) that are meaningful to you, that you connect with (it's ok if you're not deeply convinced at first).
Since you're unsatisfied with your progress, I suggest you double the frequency of writing the TMEs. For example, if you're doing them once daily, write a TME twice daily. If you're writing them three times, write them six times. If you're writing them 50 times daily, write them 100 (joke).
Good luck.
Best, Michael
Michael R. Edelstein, Ph.D.
Clinical Psychologist
San Francisco
415-673-2848 (24 hours)
Author of Three Minute Therapy:
(with David Ramsay Steele, Ph.D.)
Features help for anxiety, depression,
relationships, panic attacks and addiction
*A Quality Paperback Book Club/Book-of-the-Month Club Selection
To order: www.ThreeMinuteTherapy.com
Or toll free: 1-800-986-4135
Email: DrEdelstein@ThreeMinuteTherapy.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nycki
User is Offline
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 39
|
| Posted: Fri 2525 Jan 08, 8 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Rupert, I can empathise with what you are saying. It doesn't seem to
> be an unreasonable request that the situation you describe does not
> occur.
>
> One of Burn's techniques is to try and empathise with the person who you
> feel has wronged you. For instance if the thought that your partner
> should have broken up with you at the time of seeing someone else, Burns
> suggests that the partner might have felt unable to stop seeing you
> because they were attracted to two people. In short Burns tries to get
> you to see the other person as suffering from 'akrasia '- weakness of
> the will.
>
> Here is how Burns describes the thoughts of a wife who has found out
> that her husband has had an affair after therapy.
>
> " He loved me but was desperately attracted to Ann. As much as he wanted
> to he couldn't stop seeing her. He felt very guilty and couldn't stop
> himself. He felt he would lose if he left Ann, and he would lose if he
> left me. He was unwilling and unable to come to terms with either form
> of loss,...."
>
> Burns : Chapter 7:, p.169
I must say that this part of Burns kind of freaked me out. I love the
book and all, but empathizing with the cheating spouse seems nuts to
me. She should(!) have some self respect and not justify his bad
behavior!
Sorry to butt in!
Kevin
Tue 15 Jan 08, 10:06 p.m.
It's easy to empathize with a victim. It's not so easy to empathize with a "perpetrator". But let's not confuse empathy with sympathy or "feeling sorry" for another person. Empathy might lead to sympathy and sympathy might lead to forgiveness, but empathy itself is merely the ability to identify with another's thinking, emoting and behaving; to feel what they feel, to see things from their perspective. It is not always so easy, but if we can actually do it, empathy makes it much harder to hurl shoulds at him or her, to do labeling, name calling, people-rating. From that high perspective, it becomes easier to accept that it truly does take "two to tango", that every story does have two sides, and that, thankfully, even when people do very hurtful things to one another, it is usually not a sadistic act. Typically people, all of us, spend our life pursuing our own self-interest in one way or another. And in my opinion, even "selfless", generous, apparently altruistic acts are ultimately drive by self-interest. I don't mean that in a critical, cynical or judgmental way; I just believe that in the end, it all boils down to self-interest. The thing is that the pursuit of my self-interest often conflicts with the pursuit of your self-interest and vice versa, and we end up stepping on each others toes all the time, usually without really meaning to, usually in relatively unimportant ways. As social animals, we have worked out systems and rules and rituals for minimizing and mending these conflicts when the occur. But some people don't seem to learn the delicate "dance" of doing their own thing and satisfying their own desires while at the same time being a part of a group or a relationship. But even in difficult, inflammatory, hurtful situations such as "cheating", the cheater usually has no wish to deliberately hurt his or her partner. There is something going on that needs to be explored and discussed openly and honestly. And even if a relationship turns out to no longer be viable after the discovery of cheating, at least the parting need not be toxic and devastating.
Notice that in my long-winded gab here, I have said nothing about "morals" or "right and wrong." That's not my area particularly. However, I do believe that you can successfully deal with and solve problems, even quite difficult, inflammatory problems, without bringing those concepts into play. Furthermore, I do believe, and know from my own experience, that if you can empathize with another, everything becomes easier, clearer, less hurtful, and more "adult." As Nycki pointed out, the event itself is bad enough, but it's happened, and we are reacting. That's reality. OK, reality is reality. But lets not further exaggerate and inflame it with IB's and distorted thinking so that it becomes doubly or triply painful and destructive for everyone involved. Especially if there are kids or other potential victims around, lets not needlessly inflame things for their sake as well as for our own.
An empathy a day keeps the should monster away!
I said that! tee-hee. 
Aloha,
Rex |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
All times are GMT + 7 Hours
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
| |
|